tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post3607277868175607235..comments2023-12-28T18:17:11.191-05:00Comments on Gruntled Center: Mormons are Fine People, But Not ChristiansGruntledhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-70064695573406631102007-12-22T20:45:00.000-05:002007-12-22T20:45:00.000-05:00Mormon: I find them to be true, and have faith tha...<B>Mormon</B>: <I>I find them to be true, and have faith that God who loves his children will directly answer inquiries of others sincerely seeking the truth of them for themselves.</I><BR/><BR/>My Mormon friend, as long as you put your faith in Christ and continue to seek after him, I count you my Christian brother. I know He is faithful and will not abandon you. Put your trust in Him and not in the arm of flesh and you shall know the truth. My profile has my email address. Please contact me if you have any questions.<BR/><BR/>Go with God.op-edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281133721763371602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-22076325289111482512007-12-22T19:50:00.000-05:002007-12-22T19:50:00.000-05:00BTW,about John 8, I am absolutely baffled why Jose...BTW,<BR/><BR/>about John 8, I am absolutely baffled why Jose keeps quoting it. It gives me confidence, knowing that I am following Him (even to the standards of believing the Bible, and in looking to Christ for salvation that all other Christians do). It does not mention the Nicaean Creed, it does not mention whether the Book of Mormon is true or not, it simply mentions if you follow Him, you are his disciple.<BR/><BR/>So, Jose, thanks for your gift of confidence this Holiday season. And that it conflicts with your own points, is your own issue to deal with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-45422941606852867252007-12-22T19:46:00.000-05:002007-12-22T19:46:00.000-05:00Jose accused, "You fail to respond to any of the m...Jose accused, "You fail to respond to any of the major criticisms that I, and the varied Christian denominations I cited".<BR/><BR/>You are completely out of ideas, and now are simply trying to ignore what I said? Please repeat, and provide a link, to a major criticism that was not responded to.<BR/><BR/>Jose charged, "you wish to isolate me as if what I have been saying is not the position of Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Mennonites, Adventists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Orthodox, etc.,"<BR/><BR/>Actually Jose, one of the problems here is that you keep trying to tell me my own position. I've gone through great lengths to explain my position amidst your incorrect assumptions. I recognize you as a Christian as well as the others you cite. I wouldn't dream of isolating you from their teachings. Yet I find it so unbecoming that they spend so much time on their websites trying to isolate Mormons from the Christian brotherhood.<BR/><BR/>That is okay, Mormons are a peculiar people. Good people, and you have to credit the doctrines they teach with the good that they do. Christ is in all good things, in every good gift. That might be the closest we will come to objective proof that Mormons are Christians. As I mentioned before, I find these doctrines to be beautiful (you called them simplistic), I find them to be enriching to bringing me closer to Christ (you called them "false teachings and false prophets" and problematic).<BR/><BR/>I find them to be true, and have faith that God who loves his children will directly answer inquiries of others sincerely seeking the truth of them for themselves. You have pointed to political compromises, anti-mormon websites, and even science -- as if it were the same as divine authority.<BR/><BR/>Now, go have a good Christmas holiday. Don't fret that Mormons also have a close relationship with Christ, and seek his grace, and his love diligently through His gifts for the whole world. And if you get a chance, read the Book of Mormon, because it really is a great book. You'll understand more about it and Mormons after reading it than hundreds of anti-mormon websites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-51370547572311219392007-12-22T03:04:00.000-05:002007-12-22T03:04:00.000-05:00Oh well, it looks like it's all out ad hominem tim...Oh well, it looks like it's all out ad hominem time.<BR/><BR/>Adiós.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-53220175996481971622007-12-22T01:37:00.000-05:002007-12-22T01:37:00.000-05:00José: ...because we all speak with one voice on th...<B>José</B>: <I>...because we all speak with one voice on this matter.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, José does not speak for Chistianity. He is, in fact, behaving in a very un-Christian, un-Christlike fashion. Please don't judge Christianity by José.<BR/><BR/><B>José</B>: <I>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31</I><BR/><BR/>José, please do not profane the scriptures with your vain repetition. Seeing, you see not. Hearing, you understand not. You trample underfoot that which is Holy because of your pride.<BR/><BR/><B>José</B>: <I> details that demonstrate that the teaching of Christ is pure pacifism.</I><BR/><BR/>If you truly believed that, then you are choosing not to follow Christ when you attack the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Unitarians.op-edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281133721763371602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-28103560535065159072007-12-22T00:58:00.000-05:002007-12-22T00:58:00.000-05:00—My dear Mormon Passerby,You fail to respond to an...—My dear Mormon Passerby,<BR/><BR/>You fail to respond to any of the major criticisms that I, and the varied Christian denominations I cited, make demonstrating why Mormons are not Christians. You must realize that though you wish to isolate me as if what I have been saying is not the position of Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Mennonites, Adventists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Orthodox, etc., it is really futile effort. These are all denominations that recognize God as a being of three Persons in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and this is derived from a non-simplistic understanding of the Bible. We all also thoroughly reject the Book of Mormon as a fictitious writing of no historical value. Likewise we all reject your Mormon prophets. Your case must be against all of us, and not just José, because we all speak with one voice on this matter.<BR/><BR/>Certainly the denominations cited have differences with each other but they all agree in what I have stated regarding Mormons.<BR/><BR/>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31<BR/><BR/>You bring up interesting matters that could be addressed but they are not all germane to the issue of why Mormons are not Christians and the discussion on these would take us too far off. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to understand that I am a Mennonite and not a Catholic though I think very highly of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and other Christian denominations. I have a fairly ecumenical approach but know where to draw the line. I may soon need to draw the line on ECUSA as it lapses into flagrant heresy. Much of its flock is already fleeing to more wholesome pastures. <BR/><BR/>This is not the place for me to go into the Scriptural details that demonstrate that the teaching of Christ is pure pacifism. Your comments to the contrary show how far off you are in your understanding of the New Testament. Do spend more time pondering the Sermon on the Mount.<BR/><BR/>I have said what I needed to say on this matter and I don’t think I am about to convert you. At this point we may only be going around in circles. <BR/> <BR/>I am your friend and I wish you nothing but God’s blessings. I’m certain we have many things in common, particularly in ethical principles, so that in our own ways we will work together towards important social goals. <BR/><BR/>Merry Christmas to you and yours.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-30825542976761599962007-12-21T14:27:00.000-05:002007-12-21T14:27:00.000-05:00Jose you said that there is nothing in the Bible t...Jose you said that there is nothing in the Bible to support the events in the Book of Mormon. That is an unfortunately ignorant statement, much like the rest he has said. In some ways the Book of Mormon records unique events, and in some ways corroborates events and doctrines in the Bible (and so does the Bible with the Book of Mormon).<BR/><BR/>But lets also add to the list that there is nothing in the Bible supporting these other events...<BR/><BR/>* That Peter was ever the Bishop of Rome (in fact from what the Bible records it seems he only visited there)<BR/>* That the stigmata is a sign of Christian emulation (Christ noted the signs of the believers, and seemed to skip that one)<BR/>* That God has stopped talking to his children through prophets (Amos teaches that God will do nothing except he first reveals it to his Prophets.)<BR/>* That the Bible is the only written work God we would ever have recorded as scripture. (The Bible actually references many scriptures that are no longer a part of the Bible. And prophesies of more scriptures to come.)<BR/>* That Christianity requires adherence to the Nicaean Creed (or that voting among Bishops is a way to divine the mind and will of God since in reference to what Amos said above.)<BR/>* That Temple worship would be done away (in fact the prophesies of Ezekiel and Isaiah promise that there will continue Temple worship through the second coming of our Lord and Savior)<BR/>* Christ was a pacifist. He is confusing Christianity with Jainism. (While there were many times he did not take aggressive action, he said himself he brought a sword to pit even family members against each other, killed fig tree, and in the old testament caused many plagues and punishments that at one point nearly wiped out all humans on the planet).<BR/><BR/>The main point again is that Jose, like Elias of the Franciscans, is so zealous to create a criteria of worship that he is inadvertently casting off things we know from the scriptures are true. <BR/><BR/>He is not referencing the scriptures, but websites talking about concepts and ideas that they know little about. And are antagonistic towards Mormons, just as Jose has been. And yet they both have expended only the basest of energies to understand. <BR/><BR/>Jose, you keep quoting the phrase that Op-Ed quoted to you. Perhaps soon you will realize its meaning is not that I should adhere to your mistaken views of Christianity (and what other group of people you got them from), but to apply to Christ for my salvation.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I do not know why Jose is so adamant in his views. I know his views are not Christs on the matter.<BR/><BR/>(Oh and perhaps if expanding the priesthood is a sign of a false faith, why so many Christian faiths extended the priesthood to women and in Old Testament times limited it to just one lineage.) Again Jose is playing the same game that we see Christ rebuke in the pharisees, of straining at gnats and swallowing camels.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-8372951084355235072007-12-21T11:38:00.000-05:002007-12-21T11:38:00.000-05:00Another un-Christian doctrine of Mormon’s, held un...Another un-Christian doctrine of Mormon’s, held until 1978, discriminated against blacks in the priesthood. “And ‘Mormon America,’ which was just re-released, notes plainly that ‘Mormon teaching against race-mixing remains in force.’”<BR/><BR/>Here’s an interesting summary of that history from today's Wall Street Journal’s editorial page (Fri. Dec. 21, 2007): http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110011023<BR/><BR/>In time it is possible that Mormon’s will receive or accept additional “revelations” that will bring them fully into the Christian faith. Let us so pray. <BR/><BR/>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-63358290117745969462007-12-21T01:24:00.000-05:002007-12-21T01:24:00.000-05:00Sorry Mormon Passerby but there is nothing in the ...Sorry Mormon Passerby but there is nothing in the Bible supporting the events listed in the Book of Mormon. It is purely a work of fiction. And there is nothing Christian about the polygamous practices of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al.<BR/><BR/>Please don’t appeal to adversarial and antagonistic commentary by talking about “anti-mormon” websites. These are Catholic, Anglican, etc. websites expounding on why Mormons are not Christians. These are Christians who love people of the Mormon faith even if they disagree with their beliefs. We are not anti-Jew or anti-Moslem because we do not agree with their theology. <BR/><BR/>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31<BR/><BR/>Yours for Christ’s sake.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-21735940920844236912007-12-20T21:59:00.000-05:002007-12-20T21:59:00.000-05:00It seems striking the difference in appeal here. T...It seems striking the difference in appeal here. There is no difficulty in finding support for Mormon doctrines in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>And there is no difficulty for Jose to find popular support for his charges -- in anti-mormon <I>websites</I>.<BR/><BR/>Again, look at the source.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-51147510850450863792007-12-20T20:09:00.000-05:002007-12-20T20:09:00.000-05:00For the general reader.“… It isn’t correct to call...For the general reader.<BR/><BR/>“… It isn’t correct to call Mormons Protestants, because doing so implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity—what C. S. Lewis termed "mere Christianity." The fact is, they don’t.” (http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp)<BR/><BR/>“It is time for Mormons to come to grips with the Christ of the Holy Scriptures and the Church of history. There is no question now that the core Mormon beliefs cannot withstand the evidence of history, genetics, and archaeology.” http://labarum.net/?cat=17<BR/><BR/>For Anglican-Mormon differences see http://kotaraang.angelfire.com/Mormonism.pdf<BR/><BR/><BR/>Why Mormons are not Christians:<BR/>http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm<BR/>http://www.afcministry.com/Are_Mormons_Christians.htm<BR/><BR/>“The Mormons' doctrines of baptism, salvation, and the afterlife place them at odds with centuries of Christian teaching in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions.” http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/9r2/9r2068.html<BR/><BR/>Of course whether Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, varied Gnostics, etc. are Christians depends on how you understand Christianity and the Bible teaching. Bart Ehrman’s book Lost Christianities speaks from the perspective that Christian you are if you say you are. So the Sethian Gnostics who wrote the Gospel of Judas are Christians. Perhaps Op Ed agrees with this. I don’t accept it and neither do the churches I mentioned earlier. I agree with Gruntled: “Mormons are Fine People, But Not Christians.”<BR/><BR/>********<BR/>I’m not sure who I would vote for president and probably will not make up my mind till after the primary. At the moment I might actually favor John McCain as he might be the only one that can defeat Hillary Clinton. A McCain/Huckabee ticket would be dynamite. <BR/><BR/>If I do not think there is a clear higher moral ground between the two final contenders I might not vote at all. Many of my Mennonite brethren do not vote as they do not see much of salvation significance in the process. I agree with them on the salvation part but do believe it can make some difference here on earth while were hanging around. <BR/><BR/>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31<BR/><BR/>Peace.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-10457730127313473792007-12-20T12:30:00.000-05:002007-12-20T12:30:00.000-05:00You would take Romney over Huckabee on those crite...You would take Romney over Huckabee on those criteria?Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-52236556182749212672007-12-20T11:38:00.000-05:002007-12-20T11:38:00.000-05:00Hi Gruntled,I thought that might bring my latte-si...Hi Gruntled,<BR/><BR/>I thought that might bring my latte-sipping, Birkenstocks, intellectual Democrat friend into the discussion. I recognize the impossibility of the Dalai Lama becoming president but I certainly would vote for him over Clinton or Romney if it were possible. I also realize that he would probably be promptly assassinated if he were elected. You see, like the Dalai Lama, Jesus and His apostles I am a pacifist. Like Jesus and the apostles the Dalai Lama is also opposed to homosexual conduct and abortion. I do not accept his reincarnation views but these should not interfere with his presidency anymore than imagining there were horses, cows and pigs in the Americas before Columbus would be a hindrance. <BR/><BR/>I think the Dalai Lama is a person of greater integrity than any of the present presidential candidates. <BR/><BR/>I am, believe it or not, a liberal Democrat myself and would certainly vote for Hillary if she gave up her abortion and pro-homosexual conduct, civil union views. Those errors are so damaging that I would vote for Romney over her. But we have a long ways to go before seeing who the candidates will be.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-18119020291643065262007-12-20T10:07:00.000-05:002007-12-20T10:07:00.000-05:00Jose, would you really prefer the Dalai Lama as pr...Jose, would you really prefer the Dalai Lama as president of the United States (ignoring the Constitutional impossibility) to Hillary Clinton?Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-44896898969581079582007-12-20T02:05:00.000-05:002007-12-20T02:05:00.000-05:00José: They all fully agree with what I have been s...<B>José</B>: <I>They all fully agree with what I have been saying.</I><BR/><BR/>José, I write this not for your sake but for the sake of those who might read what you say and think you represent any part of Christianity. You do not. You do not speak for all Christianity and you certainly do not speak for me.<BR/><BR/><I>The Jehovah Witnesses and Unitarians are outside the Christian teaching</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus said, "If ye continue in <B>my</B> word, then are ye my disciples [Christians] indeed," not "if ye continue in <B>José's</B> word..."<BR/><BR/><I>Christians</I> welcome all who would follow Christ to do so. Take what you understand of Him and follow His teachings. Your understanding may not be the same as mine, but if you sincerely seek after Him, He will not abandon you. He will not berate, demean or exclude you because your understanding is not yet perfect. But instead, He will show you truth. And when you come to understand more truth, then follow it, and if you continue to seek after Him then you will find Him. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." That is His promise.op-edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281133721763371602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-81423328561731732372007-12-20T00:34:00.000-05:002007-12-20T00:34:00.000-05:00My dear Mormon Passerby, The source I am coming fr...My dear Mormon Passerby, <BR/><BR/>The source I am coming from is the Bible and the essential teaching of all Christendom, e.g., Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Mennonite & Amish, Baptist, Reformed Churches, Adventist, etc. They all fully agree with what I have been saying. The source you are coming from is that of the polygamists Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. The Jehovah Witnesses and Unitarians are outside the Christian teaching but at least they are not proclaiming false prophets. <BR/><BR/>As Gruntled has said, “Mormons are Fine People, But Not Christians.” Moslems and Buddhists are fine people, but not Christians. As I’ve said, I would still rather vote for Mormon Mitt Romney than Christian Hillary Clinton. I would also prefer the Dalai Lama.<BR/><BR/>Do reread what I have written.<BR/><BR/>My prayers are with you.<BR/><BR/>Peace.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-33219997619307414172007-12-19T23:41:00.000-05:002007-12-19T23:41:00.000-05:00Jose,What you write is very sad to hear. You haven...Jose,<BR/><BR/>What you write is very sad to hear. You haven't really appealed to the scriptures, (I remember one attempt you needed to be reminded what it really said as also "with God"). And now you seem to show little faith in appeal to what they say, perhaps now much less so since I've provided them for your edification. And short of an authoritative appeal to scripture you also seem reluctant to believe in our ability to gain direct revelation from God on these matters. And you certainly seem willing to trample the pearls I've received from Him in my own efforts to do the same.<BR/><BR/>What source do you think to be coming from to turn away from the scriptures and personal answers to prayers, or at least to just try to turn me away from them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-69580012200649660362007-12-19T19:54:00.000-05:002007-12-19T19:54:00.000-05:00Dear Mormon Passerby,I’m afraid that your approach...Dear Mormon Passerby,<BR/><BR/>I’m afraid that your approach to discussion simply will not work. It is one thing to make a clear statement and then support it with scriptural passages and another to simply toss scripture quotes. I could just as well hand you the Bible and tell you that’s what I believe, so there. <BR/><BR/>I have stated my position clearly which is in the essentials the same as that of Christendom in general, but different from that of Mormons because of their Christology, false prophets, and spurious add-ons.<BR/><BR/>Be assured that my admonishment to you is thoroughly serious. Renounce false teachings and false prophets and accept without adulteration what the New Testament reveals about Christ and his way.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for bringing to my attention Elias and the Franciscans. I knew nothing about him and what he did among the Franciscans has nothing whatsoever with anything I am doing. Indeed, any comparison you are making between Elias of Cortona and myself is nothing more than an ad hominem. I could just as well be comparing you with Judas Iscariot, which I am not.<BR/><BR/>Peace.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-7097509989101267632007-12-19T13:07:00.000-05:002007-12-19T13:07:00.000-05:00Jose,We do have different interpretations, that is...Jose,<BR/><BR/>We do have different interpretations, that is evident. But I have only used scriptures to help you better understand the answers to questions you have asked me. Not in my words but those of the apostles who we both revere. That is fair enough, I believe.<BR/><BR/>Ask God and find out for yourself, I trust in your relationship with Him. But be careful that you do not break the laws of God with your laws, or wind up condemning those God has called as prophets and the commandments he has given them. I am very serious in my admonishment that you do not play the role Elias did in establishing and preserving a Franciscan orthodoxy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-16805008431661318522007-12-19T12:20:00.000-05:002007-12-19T12:20:00.000-05:00Dear Mormon Passerby,Our conversation can continue...Dear Mormon Passerby,<BR/><BR/>Our conversation can continue on the high ground if you avoid throwing in personal insults for a dramatic effect buttressing varied repetitions and ludicrous assertions.<BR/><BR/>Please do not merely throw Bible verses at me since you must be aware that all of Christendom interprets the ones you cite differently from the way you and Mormons do. What exactly are you saying? Are you defending polygamy in a Christian home with the verses you cite? Please start your answer with a yes or a no.<BR/><BR/>Also, please reread my last comment.<BR/><BR/>I will tell you simply that in the Old Testament they did many things that under Christ we can no longer do. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young came after the New Testament teaching was given to us.<BR/><BR/>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-7834690301388313132007-12-19T01:05:00.000-05:002007-12-19T01:05:00.000-05:00Well Jose,Not only has John the beloved, Christ, M...Well Jose,<BR/><BR/>Not only has John the beloved, Christ, Moses and others not met your test for Christian, but now you have thrown out David, Abraham and Jacob for having plural wives.<BR/><BR/>What an amazingly arrogant ability to pronounce yourself exalted in authority above them. What amazingly unbiblical restrictions you have there.<BR/><BR/>As was said in John 8, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed..."<BR/><BR/>Jose also said, "Maybe you can explain celestial marriages for instance and ideas about “companions” in eternity"<BR/><BR/>Or I will let Peter explain it, "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and <EM>as being heirs together of the grace of life</EM>; that your prayers be not hindered."<BR/><BR/>Or Paul, "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, <I>in the Lord</I>."<BR/><BR/>Heirs together of the grace of life, neither is without the other in the Lord. God joined Adam and Eve, and me and my wife. The Preacher states, "I know that, <I>whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever</I>: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." <BR/><BR/>Mark quotes Christ even more specifically on this topic, "And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they wain shall be one flesh: so then <I>they are no more twain, but one flesh</I>. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."<BR/><BR/>Christ specifically states the authority given his Apostles is not an earthly power like is practiced in marriage by so many churches. Peter is the rock, and Christ then says, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and <I>whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven</I>: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."<BR/><BR/>And I do not think I can let you off honestly without answering that question. If I missed your answer, I do apologize, but I do not see it. Perhaps someone can point out the answer you left to the question:<BR/><BR/>You also asked about Temple worship. As with Christ answering, I will first ask you a question. You are probably as familiar with temple worship as anyone else. Christ went to worship at the temple, but did he offer the incense offering like Zacharias did? Did Moses?<BR/><BR/>Why not? You tell me, and I will answer your question.<BR/><BR/>Did Moses? Elijah? Samuel? Take your time, do a good answer. I wish you the best Jose, and wish you the merriest season celebrating the advent of our Lord and Savior. If you choose to wait until after the season, go with God. And answer when you can give it a real clear and definitive treatment. I mean that sincerely. You are a good soul, I enjoy our talk of Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-36615423163310250532007-12-18T23:34:00.000-05:002007-12-18T23:34:00.000-05:00Sorry, that should have been Brigham not "Bringing...Sorry, that should have been Brigham not "Bringing."José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-48641814675991821152007-12-18T20:04:00.000-05:002007-12-18T20:04:00.000-05:00“The meaning of the Creed existed long before its ...“The meaning of the Creed existed long before its was succinctly formulated. <BR/>It is, nonetheless, an interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself. Not everyone understands the Bible correctly, but I believe it is important everyone try just the same and not be derided for it.” Op Ed.<BR/><BR/>No one said the Nicene Creed is the Bible. No one has been derided for reading the Bible. <BR/><BR/>“A Christian is a disciple of Jesus and believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the Messiah prophesied of in the Old Testament, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind, who died for our sins and was resurrected.”<BR/><BR/>This is true But, if a person states the above and has sixteen wives that his church consecrated, he’s a Christian?<BR/><BR/>Or if he confesses the above and marries someone of the same-sex through his church (UCC), he’s a Christian? <BR/><BR/>But what is problematic about Mormon views is not the biblical teachings that they hold in common with Christians but all the add-ons that come through Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, etc. Beliefs such as: <BR/><BR/>"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction." <BR/><BR/>I’m sure that knowledgeable Mormons can detail better than I the numerous add-ons that are not found in the New Testament. Maybe you can explain celestial marriages for instance and ideas about “companions” in eternity and polygamy in the afterlife. <BR/><BR/>If LDS has rejected the teaching of polygamy my question is were Joseph Smith and Bringing Young Christians when they taught that polygamy was to be practiced? A yes answer of course means that one can be a polygamist and a Christian. <BR/><BR/>“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . . .” John 8:31José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-27648290655244936742007-12-18T16:39:00.000-05:002007-12-18T16:39:00.000-05:00José: Where do you draw the line to determine when...<B>José</B>: <I>Where do you draw the line to determine when someone is non-Christian?</I><BR/><BR/>A Christian is a disciple of Jesus and believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the Messiah prophesied of in the Old Testament, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind, who died for our sins and was resurrected.<BR/><BR/>I have said as much already.<BR/><BR/><I>Are Jehovah Witnesses, Moslems or Unitarians non-Christians?</I><BR/><BR/>Ask them.<BR/><BR/><I>The meaning of the Creed existed long before its was succinctly formulated.</I><BR/><BR/>It is, nonetheless, an interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself. Not everyone understands the Bible correctly, but I believe it is important everyone try just the same and not be derided for it. If one truly believes in Christ, one believes all those who sincerely seek Him will find Him.<BR/><BR/>John 8:<BR/>"31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;<BR/>"32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."op-edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281133721763371602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-60998234597340583302007-12-18T14:37:00.000-05:002007-12-18T14:37:00.000-05:00Well, many statements have been made and with my t...Well, many statements have been made and with my time constraints I cannot immediately respond to all. I’ll select a few to address.<BR/><BR/>Mormon Passerby. You state that “to say that defines Christianity is believing in the divine authority of an unbaptized militaristic emperor.” This coming from someone who believes in the “divine authority” of a 19th century polygamist is rather peculiar. It does show that you need to get the facts on what transpired at the Council of Nicea. Constantine did not write the Nicene Creed he merely convened a council that consisted of some 300 bishops from all over the world. It is they who by nearly unanimous consensus worked out the Creed. We know that three bishops disagreed. <BR/><BR/>We cannot reopen the entire Athanasius-Arius controversy here, important as it might be to study. The political motivations and machinations of Constantine are another issue. Suffice it to say that the Nicene Creed is one of the dividing lines between Christians and Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Moslems, Unitarians, etc. Moslems accept Mohammed as the supreme prophet and Mormons seem to accept Joseph Smith as theirs. <BR/><BR/>Now, Mormon Passerby, it’s time for you to show your hand. I gave you my response to your question and you didn’t like it. You may not like another response which I would give so it’s your turn to provide the answer you wish to hear. I’ll tell you if I agree or not or if it’s relevant to the questions I’ve been asking you. I don’t have that much time to play hide and seek.<BR/><BR/>Op Ed. Where do you draw the line to determine when someone is non-Christian? Are Jehovah Witnesses, Moslems or Unitarians non-Christians? I know that certain Protestants not only call the Catholic Church non-Christian but the actual seat of the anti-Christ. Yet the Catholic Church still considers them Christians, albeit very theologically confused. <BR/><BR/>The importance of the Creed is not its antiquity or “reverence” but its meaning. The meaning of the Creed existed long before its was succinctly formulated.<BR/><BR/>By referring to someone as non-Christian it is not automatically assumed that he may not obtain salvation, though he is certainly at risk.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.com