tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post114985818603798334..comments2023-12-28T18:17:11.191-05:00Comments on Gruntled Center: Gay vs. Ex-Gay Christians 3: What is Success?Gruntledhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-60350481032069729772006-12-23T13:27:00.000-05:002006-12-23T13:27:00.000-05:00The preceding deleted comment was a long Jehovah's...The preceding deleted comment was a long Jehovah's Witness tract only slightly related to the topic at hand.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-52356713255405832932006-12-22T15:19:00.000-05:002006-12-22T15:19:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1150704177409224852006-06-19T04:02:00.000-04:002006-06-19T04:02:00.000-04:00Trackback to Family Scholars Blog where this topic...Trackback to Family Scholars Blog where this topic has come up, again.<BR/><BR/>http://familyscholars.org/?p=5882Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149958285523339742006-06-10T12:51:00.000-04:002006-06-10T12:51:00.000-04:00Stuart,I submit that of the "consequences of tinke...Stuart,<BR/><BR/>I submit that of the "consequences of tinkering with heterosexual mores" that you list, only one - high rates of divorce - is any different today than it has been over the centuries.<BR/><BR/>There have always been teen pregnancies and abortions (though the latter were more of the back alley type and were more often deadly). STD's used to be prevalent among those who followed ALL moral standards and were rampant among those who did not.<BR/><BR/>The only one that is "new" is the acceptance of high divorce rates. That's only really been true in the last century. My personal standard says that people don't take marriage seriously enough and that is the cause of the current high divorce rates.<BR/><BR/>Other than the bodily mechanics involved, if you accept a form of marriage for gay couples and allow adoption - what makes the mores involved any different than those for married heterosexual couples?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149870818303890342006-06-09T12:33:00.000-04:002006-06-09T12:33:00.000-04:00Hey FriendsCheck outhttp://gruntledcenter.blogspot...Hey Friends<BR/>Check out<BR/>http://gruntledcenter.blogspot.com/<BR/>Run by :William (Beau) Weston Location:Danville, Kentucky, United States Sociology professor. Swarthmore and Yale. Beard, Birkenstocks, Macintosh, Democrat. Latte-sipping intellectual. AND Married father of three. Ruling Elder of the Presbyterian Church. Front porch sitter in a small town in a very red state. Contented with it. Very insightful articles.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to Gus I found the site<BR/><BR/>Peter WoodsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149868059902106782006-06-09T11:47:00.000-04:002006-06-09T11:47:00.000-04:00I'm with Becky. Monogamous homosexuality is fine ...I'm with Becky. Monogamous homosexuality is fine with me. Given that there is no practical version of marriage under today's secular laws, I do not hold the lack of a marriage ceremony against a gay couple.<BR/><BR/>Promiscuity, unhealthy relationships (up to and including rape) and other similar situations need to be evaluated using a common set of values for heterosexual and homosexual relationships. (for example, sex between adults and children is out of the question in either case. Ditto for adultery)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149867889808763262006-06-09T11:44:00.000-04:002006-06-09T11:44:00.000-04:00Fair enough. The issue in the Presbyterian Church...Fair enough. The issue in the Presbyterian Church, which I have been studying, is that the Bible does seem unequivocally condemn homosexual behavior. This is not a problem, of course, for people and churches which are not bound by the Bible. For most Americans, though, it poses something of dilemma.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149866507488803682006-06-09T11:21:00.000-04:002006-06-09T11:21:00.000-04:00Concerning the question: "Is homosexuality a probl...Concerning the question: "Is homosexuality a problem?" - I would answer no in so much as being a sexual-being is not a problem in and of itself. The problem is when one's homosexual or heterosexual behavior is used for ill-will or is unhealthy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149864151070501032006-06-09T10:42:00.000-04:002006-06-09T10:42:00.000-04:00Agreed. The basic issue is, is homosexuality a pr...Agreed. <BR/><BR/>The basic issue is, is homosexuality a problem, or not?Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149863031760429752006-06-09T10:23:00.000-04:002006-06-09T10:23:00.000-04:00My main point was that if a group selects for chan...My main point was that if a group selects for change, they are more likely to be successful in that change.<BR/><BR/>In much the same way, you could conclude that someone's "natural" weight was X lbs. Those who join a diet program are going to have a higher success rate than those who don't. They've chosen to attempt to modify their behavior and WANT to.<BR/><BR/>Those who feel that an extra 20 lbs is OK for them will have a lower success rate in meeting somebody else's "target" weight.<BR/><BR/>Note that I'm not arguing the merits of a particular weight here - just that if you take steps to lose you will do better at losing than those who didn't take those steps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149860152920097312006-06-09T09:35:00.000-04:002006-06-09T09:35:00.000-04:00Maybe, but heading in this direction starts to loo...Maybe, but heading in this direction starts to look like special pleading.<BR/><BR/>The aspect of the homosexuality debate that I know best is the argument over what the Bible says and means. One of the important developments in that argument in the past decade or so is that most churches now talk about homosexual behavior, rather than homosexuality. John Boswell pointed out years ago that the Bible does not talk about homosexuality or homosexual orientation -- a concept that was not invented until the 19th century. <BR/><BR/>The advantage of focusing on behavior rather than orientation is that it shifts the whole discussion away from the murky metaphysics of "identity" and back toward the familiar problems of acting right, no matter what our orientations and impulses are. Much of our lives and character is based on doing what we don't really want to, and not doing what we feel like doing.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1149858573511755862006-06-09T09:09:00.000-04:002006-06-09T09:09:00.000-04:00It's also important to realize that the group in q...It's also important to realize that the group in question (folks who went the ex-gay route) were self-selected for a desire to change. That may indicate that their gay sexuality (preference and/or action) was a bit shaky to start with.<BR/><BR/>It's pretty easy for someone without access to a mirror to believe whatever soemone tells them (or whatever they decide to believe) about their eye color. Until they look in a mirror, they have no proof.<BR/><BR/>We still don't have the equivalent of a mirror to determine sexual preference, but studies are increasingly showing that some folks' brains (gay people) are wired differently than others of the same gender.<BR/><BR/>Maybe the successful ex-gays didn't have that genetic factor to start with, and chose a lifestyle that wasn't genetically imperative for them though it is for others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com