tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post5648758795423885707..comments2023-12-28T18:17:11.191-05:00Comments on Gruntled Center: The Capitol of Panem is Galt's GulchGruntledhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-53969733006304137772012-03-23T21:53:18.334-04:002012-03-23T21:53:18.334-04:00Just like today the government and the media are t...Just like today the government and the media are the villains...pittancenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-74320856833203409602012-03-23T11:25:15.121-04:002012-03-23T11:25:15.121-04:00I used to be a libertarian, too, and I think grunt...I used to be a libertarian, too, and I think gruntled is right that Galt's Gulch probably would devolve into an authoritarian dystopia despite the fact that "it goes against EVERYTHING they believe in to use force in such a way." That's because I came to the conclusion that what they want (and what I used to want) is a utopian impossibility. And when people attempt the impossible, they fail. If they are creative people with a strong sense of superiority and self-importance, their capacity for rationalization will be considerable. Probably the first generation would stick to its principles, the second would approach them "creatively," and the third would totally reverse them while redefining terms to maintain the illusion of continuity. Libertarians have a habit of inflating human autonomy by deflating social and historical context, or at least I did, and in a funny way, this actually reduces their freedom by blinding them to the social contingencies that frame their ideas.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-77752261986670314472012-03-22T21:20:38.145-04:002012-03-22T21:20:38.145-04:00Forgive my lack of memory (last time i read Atlas ...Forgive my lack of memory (last time i read Atlas Shrugged was a good 10 years ago or more), but from whence did the resource inputs for Galt's Gulch come? Was it utterly self-sufficient? I haven't read/seen HG yet, but as i understand the whole foundation of the socio/econo/political compact in Panem is that the rest of regions send natural resources to the Capitol to support it.<br /><br />Also, did AR ever posit a genetic link for "creativity" (creeping towards eugenics?)? I tend to agree with Beau that <i>over the generations</i> in galt's gulch, it's not hard to imagine that in place of productivity and creativity, complacency and cruelty might reign. In the historical record, how many children of regal kings or great "producers" have proven to be the opposite?<br /><br />As a matter of intellecual imagination, I can't dismiss the linkage in my mind.Ben Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03037071487583865974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-72756837224889843932012-03-22T19:55:28.368-04:002012-03-22T19:55:28.368-04:00You're making huge assumptions about them that...You're making huge assumptions about them that they wouldn't make. I counted myself among the objectivist / neolibertarian crowd for most of my college years, and I can assure you those people have zero interest in ruling anyone. If there was a revolt of some kind, their reaction would be to pull back into some defensible position and merely trade with any outsiders that would do so in a mutually beneficial manner. It goes against EVERYTHING they believe in to use force in such a way.Solomon Kleinsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14331941231942740033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-22088292383382075612012-03-22T18:36:42.752-04:002012-03-22T18:36:42.752-04:00I agree that Atlas Shrugged imagines that a nation...I agree that Atlas Shrugged imagines that a nation, or at least the hideaway of its "creatives," could exist without government. As I think ahead, though, to what might actually happen in the sequel, I think that they would have to develop some government to carry on to the next generation, unless they were sterile (a real possibility). <br /><br />Whatever happened in the world of drones, it would potentially threaten the world of the Atlases unless they took measures to protect themselves - the most normal course of which would be for the technologically advanced minority to assume control over the infrastructure of their backwards neighbors. In such a situation it would be likely that the overlords would need to be increasingly heavy-handed to achieve sufficient order without making themselves vulnerable. If the hinterlands revolted, as they do in the backstory of The Hunger Games, then the transition from libertarian retreat to full-blown dictatorship would be complete.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14864860607925412103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-57471312464979364372012-03-22T15:42:41.681-04:002012-03-22T15:42:41.681-04:00I'm no objectivist, but this is a terrible str...I'm no objectivist, but this is a terrible straw man of what Rand pushed in that book. Her ideas had nothing to do with ruling over anyone. It was all about choice, to an extreme libertarianesque extent, and from what I've read about Hunger Games, that isn't anything like what the government there is. The government all but didn't even exist in Galt's Gulch.Solomon Kleinsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14331941231942740033noreply@blogger.com