tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post4972854957217187306..comments2023-12-28T18:17:11.191-05:00Comments on Gruntled Center: This is the Most Exciting Moment in World Politics Since the Fall of the WallGruntledhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-11693996078537925872011-02-23T11:25:31.269-05:002011-02-23T11:25:31.269-05:00Gruntled, I agree with your first reply with the e...Gruntled, I agree with your first reply with the emendation that our policy should be guided by freedom and liberty rather than just "democracy" and with the further emendation that, because a strong commercial class is needed for democracy, and because free trade and globalization tends to break down oppressive forces (although not always), good economic policy and prosperity usually reinforces good foreign policy.<br /><br />As for your second post, backing the Shah was shorthand, I was not arguing with your history. But the history in Chile where a politically oppressive, but economically liberal (in the classic sense) regime gave way to what is, with Columbia, probably the best run South American nation today, leaves me less pessimistic about what the Pavlavi dynasty might have accomplished had they survived. Did the Pavlavi's fall because they were too oppressive, or not oppressive enough? And did what followed the Shah mark an improvement, particularly given its role in the genesis of the Terror War? <br />But that's all speculation. We are where we are, and today’s troubles are enough for today.Whitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-37568129412155426232011-02-23T10:59:43.696-05:002011-02-23T10:59:43.696-05:00Eisenhower did not merely "back the Shah"...Eisenhower did not merely "back the Shah" - he overthrew a democratically elected government, for the first time (but not the last). This created an autocratic regime without restraint. By the time Carter was president the Shah had created such a brutal police state that I don't think constitutional monarchy was possible - not with the dynasty, anyway.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-6042355611926670412011-02-23T10:59:37.418-05:002011-02-23T10:59:37.418-05:00Whit:
I entirely agree that it is too soon to te...Whit: <br /><br />I entirely agree that it is too soon to tell how things are going to play out with the various Muslim democratic uprisings. I am very hopeful, and will watch with great interest.<br /><br />I think the United States is a secondary player in these largely indigenous movements. We have more power to mess things up by getting directly involved than we do to help. Nonetheless, we should help behind the scenes as much as possible. <br /><br />I think U.S. policy should be guided by being for democracy. We go astray when we are merely against some other enemy. We are actively wrong when our policy is guided merely by economic interests.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-81099467878509167482011-02-23T10:26:54.234-05:002011-02-23T10:26:54.234-05:00Gruntled, we don't know enough yet to make a j...Gruntled, we don't know enough yet to make a judgement. <br /><br />Freedom is a lot more than democracy (majority rule), and certainly more than one-man, one-vote, one-time. You need protections for minorities and individual rights. You need protection of private property, economic liberty and the rule of law. You need limited government and a space for civil society. You need an enlightened culture that does not stone adulterers or murder apostates. (Note the conviction yesterday in Arizona for an “honor killing”) And you probably need most of all a prosperous and sizable commercial class. Whether enough of this is present, or can evolve, in these societies in time is open to question. <br /><br />What if Eisenhower had not supported the Shah? We might have had a Communist state there and across the region. Or maybe not.<br /><br />What if Carter had been more decisive? There might be a pro-American, liberalizing constitutional monarchy in Iran; or not.<br /><br />What if Reagan had responded with force after the Lebanon Marine base bombing? Would we still be facing Islamist terror?<br /><br />For that matter, what if the Orthodox Patriarchs of Constantinople not excommunicated, and the Emperors not persecuted, the Coptic, Jacobite, Armenian and other non-orthodox Christians of the Middle East, and those Christians had supported the Byzantines rather than the Arabs so that Islam was pretty much limited to the Arabian Peninsula?<br /><br />There are always unintended, and unforseen consequences in foreign policy. Often we can do no better than try to make our foreign policy consistent with the vision we have for ourselves, accept that even as a Superpower our influence is limited, and speak the truth to evil around the world.Whitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-52004326688914221272011-02-22T12:27:46.899-05:002011-02-22T12:27:46.899-05:00Do you think I am wrong? I would be glad to have ...Do you think I am wrong? I would be glad to have my errors pointed out to me.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-84652491579597964552011-02-22T10:27:27.771-05:002011-02-22T10:27:27.771-05:00I wondered how long it would take you to give Obam...I wondered how long it would take you to give Obama credit for his "handling" of their uprisings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-49942287636138726722011-02-21T22:46:59.681-05:002011-02-21T22:46:59.681-05:00Sookie, I give President Bush the Younger full cre...Sookie, I give President Bush the Younger full credit for promoting the idea of democracy in the Middle East. I think he did it so clumsily, especially in Iraq, that he may have done more harm than good. <br /><br />The current uprisings are much more likely to be successful, as they are indigenous. I think the current administration has been much more adroit at helping foster democracy by not antagonizing the reigning governments.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-41733090160385558782011-02-21T22:38:21.636-05:002011-02-21T22:38:21.636-05:00Molly Q. I think we really need to thank Eisenhow...Molly Q. I think we really need to thank Eisenhower, for overthrowing Iran's elected government and installing a dictatorship, which was backed by all subsequent administrations until it was overthrown. Actually, I think Carter had the best hope of helping Iran make the transition to democracy of all of that set of presidents, but we had poisoned the well for so long that we disabled the moderately religious, leaving the field open to the mullahs.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-64989094119177990052011-02-21T21:05:44.847-05:002011-02-21T21:05:44.847-05:00Some credit should be given to GWB who helped Iraq...Some credit should be given to GWB who helped Iraq begin down its road to freedom.Sookienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-43876188404323248372011-02-21T18:49:57.506-05:002011-02-21T18:49:57.506-05:00Yeah, but its taken thirty years so far and untold...Yeah, but its taken thirty years so far and untold lost lives.(Thank you Jimmy Carter.)Molly Q.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-82843335744579231712011-02-21T17:50:36.013-05:002011-02-21T17:50:36.013-05:00I don't think we have heard the last word on I...I don't think we have heard the last word on Iran yet. The protest at the stolen election almost worked, and the Iranians are still back protesting now.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-79622085937350792352011-02-21T17:47:33.669-05:002011-02-21T17:47:33.669-05:00Hope things turn out more like East Germany and le...Hope things turn out more like East Germany and less like Iran.Molly Q.noreply@blogger.com