tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post114642441076493750..comments2023-12-28T18:17:11.191-05:00Comments on Gruntled Center: Need to Balance The Church Headquarters Budget? Fire the ProphetsGruntledhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146966171049701922006-05-06T21:42:00.000-04:002006-05-06T21:42:00.000-04:00Tyler, thanks for your observations about COGA. I ...Tyler, thanks for your observations about COGA. I have had so little dealing with COGA that I have no good read on the dynamics involved. I do know that the GAC is experiencing massive paradigms shifts and I pray that the same shifts will spread to COGA and beyond.<BR/><BR/>I still haven't decided about attending GA. If I go and you are there, I'll look for, or maybe we can connect at some future joint COGA/GAC event. I'd love to chat with you.Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146789613758217552006-05-04T20:40:00.000-04:002006-05-04T20:40:00.000-04:00"This means that the persons largely responsible f..."This means that the persons largely responsible for planning this reorganization included themselves in the layoffs."<BR/><BR/>I think you have hit on a core issue here. The senior staff "gets it" and if anyone had doubt about us seriously trying to change I hope this point does not go unappreciated. They may not have laid down their live but they laid down their livelihoods. In the future, when we GAC types want to get petty about this or that action toward pet projects, what do you think we will be confronting in the back of our minds?<BR/><BR/>It is true that they will be eligible to apply for positions in the new structure but they have zero guarantees. The staff has been a shining example of servant leadership.Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146711394779247992006-05-03T22:56:00.000-04:002006-05-03T22:56:00.000-04:00It is impressive that they included the top assist...It is impressive that they included the top assistants in the cuts. I expect most will be hired back, but still, John Dettrick's point that this is a re-organization, and not just a cutback, is potentially a gain. (I should note that I posted this blog before anything had been released about which people or which units would be cut).<BR/><BR/>The Board of Pensions, The Presbyterian Foundation, and the Presbyterian Publishing Corporation all, I believe, "rest on their own bottoms" -- they make the money to pay for their own staffs. That is why they are not included in these cuts. <BR/><BR/>As to naming names, I have already mentioned the egregious example of Presbyterian Center staff who met with Hezbollah. Before that we can go back to the staffers who helped organize and fund the Re-Imagining Conference. Those instances are notable because heads actually did role when the prophets-in-the-institution went too far.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146683188067820522006-05-03T15:06:00.000-04:002006-05-03T15:06:00.000-04:00If Joey Bailey still had a job ...If Joey Bailey still had a job ...Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146663578160679062006-05-03T09:39:00.000-04:002006-05-03T09:39:00.000-04:00Gotcha.My take is very similar to yours and I expe...Gotcha.<BR/><BR/>My take is very similar to yours and I expect your breadth of experience and contact is wider than mine. I know of no particular constituency that gives in an unquestioning manner out of institutional. (It would be interesting to put that question to Joey Bailey.) I know that a woman gave about 6 million dollars about eight years ago that was unrestricted, but it was notable not only because of its size but because of its unrestricted nature. <BR/><BR/>I have heard Detterick say several times that the day of asking wealthy persons for sizeable donations to perpetuate institutions are over. Wealth donors want to see specific plans and measurable impacts. Pure institutionally loyalty isn’t sufficient. This is all the more reason why we have to get off of “features” and on to “benefits,” and really drive that story home.Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146653472936080422006-05-03T06:51:00.000-04:002006-05-03T06:51:00.000-04:00Doesn't help that I wrote my question so poorly (l...Doesn't help that I wrote my question so poorly (long day here, too). <BR/><BR/>There are people who give happily to their local congregations. There are some who give happily to their presbytery, and perhaps to a specific project run by their synod. There are many parachurch organizations connected with our denomination with a loyal support base. There are even specific projects, such as disaster relief or specific missionaries, run from Louisville that people will happily give to directly. But is there any constituency of members (not lower judicatories) who have such confidence in Louisville that they write checks with no strings and send them to the Presbyterian Center? There used to be more of one. That is, in part, where the endowment funds that support much of what goes on their came from. But in my travels in the church, even among the polity wonks and church cadres, I very rarely run across Presbyterians with that kind of confidence in our national bureaucracy in general.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146629354044879682006-05-03T00:09:00.000-04:002006-05-03T00:09:00.000-04:00Sorry. I am not sure I understand the question. (L...Sorry. I am not sure I understand the question. (Long day and I am more dense than usual.) Could you elaborate more?Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146613248375753542006-05-02T19:40:00.000-04:002006-05-02T19:40:00.000-04:00Is there an identifiable group that gives with dir...Is there an identifiable group that gives with directly confidence to Louisville?Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146607295423431352006-05-02T18:01:00.000-04:002006-05-02T18:01:00.000-04:00Good point, Larry. As memory serves me, giving at ...Good point, Larry. As memory serves me, giving at the congregational level is actually increasing ahead of inflation levels. However, smaller percentages of the money are leaving the congregation for higher judicatories and more is earmarked for local ministry.Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146602334133611862006-05-02T16:38:00.000-04:002006-05-02T16:38:00.000-04:00M. Kruse---You need to factor in another variable....M. Kruse---<BR/>You need to factor in another variable. Inflation.<BR/><BR/>I did a recent study comparing 1998 to 2004.<BR/><BR/>The costs to operate the 11,000 churches went up 17%.<BR/><BR/>The membership declined by 9%<BR/><BR/>The remaining members now have to pay 27% more in 2004 than they did in 1998 to keep their churches operating. <BR/><BR/>Members are getting tapped out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146595911727957972006-05-02T14:51:00.000-04:002006-05-02T14:51:00.000-04:00"Features tell, benefits sell" is excellently put...."Features tell, benefits sell" is excellently put. My whole approach to religion, within the denomination as well as among denominations, is to point out the benefits (and inevitability) of competition.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146594258612796342006-05-02T14:24:00.000-04:002006-05-02T14:24:00.000-04:00Presbyteries are indeed making per capita payments...Presbyteries are indeed making per capita payments. They are not required to raise the presbytery payment by allocating a proportional per capita amount to congregations but the great majority do. Technically the system is working but the disaffection of congregations who have been withholding is real (forcing presbyteries to draw on other sources) and is a clear sign all is not well.<BR/><BR/>Everything I have seen analyzing the decline in funds points ultimately in one direction: Competition. For almost everything denominations have done in the past there is now a competitor outside the denomination willing to offer the same services (ex. curriculum, missionary service, leadership training.) Furthermore, congregations are evermore inclined to directly fund local mission rather then sending money elsewhere to have a portion come back to them in local mission.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me two problems have an impact on dollars raised. One is the subject of this post. The usurpation of the body’s anointed role as a prophetic presence by a small group claiming prophetic anointing unto themselves disaffects people from the denomination. The other is a core communication problem by denominational leaders. <BR/><BR/>When I work with budding entrepreneurs I have them memorize the phrase, “Features tell, benefits sell.” Business people (and ministers) are inclined to tell what they do but the customer couldn’t care less. They want to know what the benefits are. The broader church asks of what benefit is an entity like the GAC? The GAC responds by listing features. Part of getting the GAC focused on outcomes and objectives is to get us talking about benefits instead of features.Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146540507549955562006-05-01T23:28:00.000-04:002006-05-01T23:28:00.000-04:00The larger question is: Does the denomination nee...The larger question is: Does the denomination need to be turned around? Does the PCUSA offer something unique in God's world that it needs preserving? Or is it an artifact of another time and a modern culture?<BR/><BR/>I'm not pretending to know the answer to those questions. But I don't think we should assume that the PCUSA is an integral part of the kingdom, no matter how much it "feels like home" for some of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146531086014523722006-05-01T20:51:00.000-04:002006-05-01T20:51:00.000-04:00I don't know, Wendy -- it seems to me that the mos...I don't know, Wendy -- it seems to me that the most effective evangelists, the ones most successful in "reaching the cutlure," are likely to be the most fed up with the HQ prophets.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146527749597363652006-05-01T19:55:00.000-04:002006-05-01T19:55:00.000-04:00"Per capita may be steady, but only because presby..."Per capita may be steady, but only because presbyteries make up for congregational shortfalls and withholding,"<BR/><BR/>Amen. <BR/><BR/>Our church stopped sending per capita some years ago. Yet our presbytery makes it up. If the truth be known a lot of churches are not sending to per capita to GA. GA does not want anyone to know how much of their per capita receipts are made up by the presbytery.<BR/><BR/>The 11,000 churches in the PCUSA have for too long been complicit in the radical prophetic noises coming from Louisville. For example, many church members will say "we support Israel" and then turn around and cut a check to Louisville so another entourage can have lunch with Hezbollah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146519144427873252006-05-01T17:32:00.000-04:002006-05-01T17:32:00.000-04:00Per capita may be steady, but only because presbyt...Per capita may be steady, but only because presbyteries make up for congregational shortfalls and withholding, which in turn hurts presbyteries. <BR/><BR/>I am glad to hear of the silver lining of this controversy -- that it helps us move to a more accountable structure.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146518549549114152006-05-01T17:22:00.000-04:002006-05-01T17:22:00.000-04:00Excellent Post! Although actually per capita is st...Excellent Post! Although actually per capita is staying quite stable. It is unrestricted unified mission giving that is drying up.<BR/><BR/>The curious thing I find being on the GAC is that ACSWP and other entities of the General Assembly generate about 90% of the controversial press. ACSWP and these other oracles are entities of the GA over which the GAC has no oversight. People get angry about actions of ACSWP and withhold mission funds from the GAC. Such is the fun nature of my role on the GAC. *grin*<BR/><BR/>Lest you think GAC members are unaware about these "prophetic" adventures and the damage they do, be assured they are not. The first step is to get a focused and accountable structure in place. For the first time we are moving rapidly toward that goal. With that in place we then have the ability to weigh the value of one activity versus another. You can rest assured that paid prophets is low on my list of priorities. I am not alone.Michael Krusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07562574596754907146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146493632426363062006-05-01T10:27:00.000-04:002006-05-01T10:27:00.000-04:00True, though the fallout from the Advisory Committ...True, though the fallout from the Advisory Committee on Social Witness Policy meeting with Palestinian terrorists does show that it is possible to fire prophets sometime.Gruntledhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14377809238377382438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146490351921401512006-05-01T09:32:00.000-04:002006-05-01T09:32:00.000-04:00Thanks to Denis who linked this post.You make a wo...Thanks to Denis who linked this post.<BR/><BR/>You make a wonderful point that I agree with. I wish it would happen--but I'm concerned that since the "prophets" are inside HQ, they will fight very hard to stay there and they have supporters outside the church who will help.<BR/><BR/>We'll all keep a sharp eye out on the doings at the GAC this week.Jody Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08031378214797420014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16201378.post-1146455720157301392006-04-30T23:55:00.000-04:002006-04-30T23:55:00.000-04:00Your point about "prophets" that occupy positions ...Your point about "prophets" that occupy positions of power is one that I had not considered.<BR/><BR/>I look forward to seeing how Louisville presents this, and how our friend on GAC analyzes it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05458269118174673968noreply@blogger.com